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Messages - Dav8or

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61
Spin Zone / Re: Is Self-Defense a right?
« on: July 29, 2016, 08:48:31 AM »
Quote from: nddons on July 29, 2016, 05:12:29 AM
That's kind of sick. Just because millions were exterminated by the Nazis in the 1940s does not mean that they had no "right" to life.

If you say so, but I'm just pointing out the observable world as it is. I didn't want to go all Godwin in this thread, but since you went there, I'll use your example.

The Nazis controlled much of Europe and in those times, they did not recognize the Jew's right to life. They had the power and they used it. In effect, in Germany at that time, the Jews had no right to life. Now a larger subset of humans in the world at the time did recognize the Jew's right to life and they fought to support that right. A superior being, passing by in his Foo Fighter during WWII might have looked down at that time and saw really no difference between the humans and all the other animals in the jungle and could have said, "Zap them all, this place will make a great resort spot and all these indigenous animals are in the way.", not recognizing our claim to a "right to life" anymore than we think the birds in the trees have a right to life.

Our rights are beliefs and concepts that are just recognized by a majority and enforced by that majority. There have been many times in the course of history besides the Nazis where a majority wielding power has not recognized any particular right upon a weaker minority. After all, Jeff's SMOD could come and kill us all because clearly the cosmos doesn't recognize our right to life, or any other right.

62
Spin Zone / Re: So, What Have we Learned here on PS?
« on: July 28, 2016, 06:56:37 PM »
Quote from: nddons on July 28, 2016, 02:58:00 PM
So it's not conceivable that such listeners, based upon lifetimes of observation and participation in the exercise of self-governance, have actually already formed their opinions, and said opinions are simply confirmed and nicely framed by such talk show hosts as Rush? 

How can you tell which "ditto heads" "can't or don't want to come to their own conclusions"? 

Isn't it the height of arrogance for you to believe that you are capable of making this determination?

Seriously?? Have you listened to many of the callers that call in? Not a lot of original thought there. They parrot and repeat the exact same phrases, school yard names and ideas they just heard. They rarely if ever add anything new to the conversation. It's usually a butt kissing, "me too" and "what you said" kind of a thing.

Oh yeah and I am super arrogant and super capable of determination- so there!  ;)

63
Spin Zone / Re: So, What Have we Learned here on PS?
« on: July 28, 2016, 06:47:49 PM »
Quote from: EppyGA on July 28, 2016, 06:36:15 PM
You left out ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC & CNN

Seriously, those outlets may be controlled by the left, but they are mainly for the consumption of those that don't really understand the difference between left and right, or care. Every now and then want to know what's going on in the world outside their little world.

64
Spin Zone / Re: Is Self-Defense a right?
« on: July 28, 2016, 06:40:29 PM »
Quote from: bflynn on July 28, 2016, 05:33:13 PM
Natural rights are real because they are real. Nobody can control what you believe in. It doesn't matter whether or not it is acknowledged, recognized or even identified. You can believe what you want to believe. That is the natural right to religious belief.

Similarly the rights of speech, expression, self defense, pursuit of betterment and the right to freely move around are natural human rights. Nobody has to approve them and you cannot justly be denied them, you can only be punished for performing them.

These are natural human behaviors, but are they rights? A right implies some sort of order of law, or recognized permission by a group of people. Since speech, expression, self defense, pursuit of betterment, freedom of movement and even life itself has been denied to millions of people by other people over the ages, I would argue that you describe behaviors, or even natural desires, but not a right.

65
Spin Zone / Re: Is Self-Defense a right?
« on: July 28, 2016, 06:31:29 PM »
Quote from: asechrest on July 28, 2016, 02:05:08 PM
Yes, they are concepts that we recognize as humans. They are "real" because we say so. We acknowledge the right to our own lives, and we build government and civilization and laws to help protect it. I am not suggesting that a right to life is a fundamental concept of a humanity-less universe, though, and as an agnostic I don't acknowledge a higher being as having bestowed it upon humanity.

Animals do not have a right to life in the same way we do, at least not until they communicate to us that they expect their right to life be acknowledged and agree to the reciprocal and moral responsibilities demanded by joining a civilization that protects it. That probably sounds harsh if you're an animal but it is true.

This is the slippery slope we have suffered from. Historically, all that has been required to authorize a genocide of another group of humans is to argue that they are somehow less than civilized, or human and more like animals. Being animals and not civilized humans, they get no right to life. It has taken centuries to convince everybody that all humans are the same here on earth and still many don't believe it.

I get the first bit though. Basically you're saying human rights, including the right to life is basically a human tradition that has been supported by various civilizations that recognize those rights. In a practical sense, I agree with you and this is how it has been for much of the world though out some periods of time. However it is by no means universal or recognized everywhere throughout history.

66
Spin Zone / Re: Is Self-Defense a right?
« on: July 28, 2016, 06:18:26 PM »
Quote from: Jaybird180 on July 28, 2016, 01:20:08 PM
You're using TV to form the basis of your argument???  Really?

Sure, why not? I was raised on TV and got all my core values and insight on the human animal from John Wayne, Steve McGarret and Hawkeye Pierce. Well, that and Looney Tune cartoons and the Twilight Zone.  ;)

67
Spin Zone / Re: So, What Have we Learned here on PS?
« on: July 28, 2016, 02:41:49 PM »
Quote from: nddons on July 28, 2016, 01:18:01 PM
Are you implying that listeners to "right wing radio" are incapable of forming opinions on their own?  Because that is the typical response of leftists and NPR devotees.

No, not at all. Certainly some can and do form their own opinions. As I said before, I listen to right wing radio too and I don't agree with a lot of it. However, there are a significant number of "ditto heads" out there that can't or don't want to come to their own conclusions. This also true on the left, they just do it without all the yelling and name calling.

68
Spin Zone / Re: So, What Have we Learned here on PS?
« on: July 28, 2016, 10:34:37 AM »
Quote from: Becky on July 28, 2016, 08:40:55 AM
People are angry because the sources of unbiased information have been slowly and insidiously removed from our access.  Everything is spun.  We know this, and it makes us feel helpless and thus angry.

How would you feel if you knew that all your cockpit instruments were slightly if not very inaccurate?  You would be forced to fly differently, but all your decisions and actions would be guesses, and the only truth you'd have would be what you could actually see.  Same with our media and politics.  People look around, see what they see, and it doesn't square with what the media is feeding us.

Recipe for anger.

The thing is, often the stuff these guys are all angry about are abstract to me and I only know of such things as Hillary's emails, or Benghazi, or uranium production, or whatever, is because some media outlet told me of them. I am entirely dependent on some outside source to tell me these things because I don't have any first hand knowledge. How true any of this information entirely depends on how much I trust that source of information. I can't just look around and see these things, somebody has to tell me.

The anger is largely manufactured. They tell you a thing, they tell you they are very angry, they tell you perpetrators of this thing are villainous scum, they tell you that you should be angry too and so people get angry. It's great for ratings and the purveyors of anger get paid handsomely. It is a lot of theatrics and drama and these people make a nice living off of acting angry to make you angry.

I wish I could get right leaning news and opinions without the ranting theatrics, without the name calling and from people that weren't such obvious sell outs to the almighty dollar.   

69
Spin Zone / Re: So, What Have we Learned here on PS?
« on: July 28, 2016, 10:02:25 AM »
Quote from: Mase on July 28, 2016, 09:28:31 AM
Public TV used to have William F. Buckley's Firing Line.

And now there is nothing like that on PBS, or NPR. I believe there should be.

70
Spin Zone / Re: History is immoral
« on: July 28, 2016, 09:57:47 AM »
Quote from: Lucifer on July 28, 2016, 08:59:28 AM
He quoted history and backed up Michelle.   How is that clueless?   What part of history did he misquote or twist?

 Did you even watch or listen to what he said?

He is clueless because he opened his big mouth when he shouldn't have. Michelle made a beautiful point about how far we fave come as a nation and ol' Big Mouth Bill had to try to take something away from her just because he hates her. His little history lesson was stupid and totally beside the point. But like I said, the faithful will love it because they hate all things Obama.

71
Spin Zone / Re: Is Self-Defense a right?
« on: July 28, 2016, 09:51:13 AM »
Quote from: asechrest on July 28, 2016, 08:33:07 AM
I don't think so. I'm agnostic and still believe I have a right to life, just by virtue of being a human being. I don't think government/society/etc. gives that right, but it does help protect it. This is a right inherent in every human. But I sort of get your point. When we get to these high-level discussions on rights, it's easy to lose definitional perspective or get into a chicken-or-the-egg discussion.

I find this kind of natural "right to life" argument difficult to understand as an agnostic. Since you are agnostic, you're basically saying, I am therefore I have a right to be. Still, what makes your life so special as to have this right? Our planet is cover with life, but we don't afford this right to life to 99.999999999999% of the life on this planet, only human life. Why?

We think nothing of cutting down trees that are in our way. We think nothing of poisoning insects and rodents because they bother us. We think nothing of killing animals and plants to eat and every now and then, the animals think nothing of killing us to eat. Humans evolved with a large brain, opposable thumbs and can walk on two legs. This has allowed us to be at the top of the food chain for now. I get that we are supreme over all other life forms on this planet and we can do as we like to the other species, but still, why does this outcome of evolution give us a special right to life over the other evolutionary creatures?

IMO, as best I can tell, all rights, including "natural" rights are constructs of our imaginations. They are concepts and beliefs that our big brains put together and the only thing that makes these rights real, is the ability to defend them if challenged.

72
Spin Zone / Re: Magazine Capacity Does Not Matter
« on: July 28, 2016, 09:13:20 AM »
What a dumb video. It's all a moot point anyhow as they will likely ban all auto loading guns anyhow. After that will be repeating firearms.

73
Spin Zone / Re: History is immoral
« on: July 28, 2016, 08:57:39 AM »
Bill O'Reilly is clueless. What a dumb thing to say. His faithful will love it though.

74
Spin Zone / Re: WATCH OBAMA REFER TO HIMSELF 119 TIMES DURING HILLARY NOMINATING SPEECH
« on: July 28, 2016, 08:50:28 AM »
Quote from: JeffDG on July 28, 2016, 06:39:54 AM
I just get the biggest laugh out of an all-in Trumpkin like Lucifer trying to accuse anyone of narcissism.


Sent from my iPad . Squirrel!!

That is pretty funny. Has anyone ever counted references to himself in a Trump speech? Trump is all about himself and reminds you frequently.

75
Spin Zone / Re: So, What Have we Learned here on PS?
« on: July 28, 2016, 08:27:59 AM »
Quote from: YouOnlyLiveTwice on July 28, 2016, 07:36:25 AM
And we help pay for it..

This is true and it really bothers me. I don't mind paying for it, I think it's worthwhile, but what bothers me is it has become solely a left wing biased organization. I believe that because it is in part publicly funded, equal air time should be granted to those with a right wing bias. Originally it was supposed to be unbiased and just fact based, but as we all know, unbiased reporting and opinions are impossible.

Since unbiased programing is impossible, I would suggest programming from both biases. It would be a challenge to organize and many of the supporters now would leave, but many new supporters would arrive. I have always thought how nice it would be to have a right wing informative radio program styled like NPR, but all we get is angry loud mouths and ridiculous call in shows.

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