Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - bflynn

Pages: 1 ... 302 303 [304] 305 306 ... 321
4546
Spin Zone / Re: Change of Pace - BrExit...what do you think
« on: June 24, 2016, 06:59:06 AM »
There's going to be some chaos for a little while because no one understands all the impacts of this.  Uncertainty lowers value.  But in the long run, the mini panic going on is going to be much ado about nothing.

Great time for a vacation to the UK.

4547
Spin Zone / Re: Limits
« on: June 23, 2016, 12:03:41 PM »
Making America white again is a lifestyle choice?

It's not one I'm going to choose, but yes, it is.  I don't believe many will vote for him, but he is not doing anything illegal so it's his right to declare his beliefs, to be proud and secure in them.  You cannot discriminate against him because of who it is, he wasn't in control of being created to be as he is.



4548
Spin Zone / Re: Senate Votes To Forcibly Conscript Women Into Combat
« on: June 23, 2016, 11:59:54 AM »
The article title is misleading, also.

Yes, well look at the source

4549
Spin Zone / Re: Limits
« on: June 23, 2016, 08:23:31 AM »
You know, anyone qualified should be able to throw their hat in the ring to run for Congress, right?

...

What a fucktard.

Him for running or you for criticizing his lifestyle choices?

4550
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 11:21:02 AM »
Then why were the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union created, and a "more perfect Union" created by the Constitution?


And if you want to go to the Supremes as the absolute source of Truth, then Texas v. White made clear that there was absolutely no way to withdraw from the Constitution or the Union whatsoever.


The founders brutally put down rebellions themselves.  Why is that manifest intent not relevant, but the writings of one person are?

Because the Article of Confederation were failing.  The preamble statement of the intent to create a more perfect union is because the one they had immediately after the Revolution was broken.

And you apparently aren't reading what I'm saying.  The supreme court decides US law.  The right to separate yourself from an abusive government is not in but is above the Constitution.  It's also documented in the Declaration.  The fact that the founders, as British citizens, exercised the right to succeed indicates it's something that you can do.  The omission from the Constitution is not meaningful.  If States do not have the right to succeed then how did our country get going?  Do you claim we are actually rightfully British?

And the writings are of many, many people and different positions.  If you looked at the primary source information I suggested, there are writings from Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Paine, Adam Smith and dozens of others. 

But, getting back to the topic - I assert that our militia is neither well regulated nor well equipped.  It would be beneficial to apply some regulation and then to qualify the unorganized militia and allow them to have more than the modern day equivalent of a pitchfork.

4551
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 11:01:51 AM »
Those personal beliefs wildly differed, though. For example, following Shay's Rebellion, Madison desired a stronger central government than even the eventually-ratified constitution provided, to include total federal veto power over state legislatures. He was even initially nonchalant about the omission of a Bill of Rights from the ratified Constitution, though he came around from that eventually (obviously).

The personal feelings of the founders were varied and in some cases fluid. I find it difficult to divine absolute meaning through such a cloudy lens.

They did differ and we still differ today.  Let me recommend this website as a primary source (Ironically hosted in the Netherlands):  http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1786-1800/.  Reading it can be very instructive on why things are worded the way they are and how certain things came about.

4552
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 10:59:22 AM »
Why are those people's motives controlling?  Why not others who voted on the Amendment, either in Congress or in the state legislatures who ratified the amendment?  Why not those who elected those people, or the state legislators, as their representatives to Congress or the Legislature.


Intent is irrelevant.  The words chosen, and their publicly known meanings at the time of proposal/ratification, matter.

Because they wrote the words down and because we have their writings.  If you want to include others, then show me their writings.  I'm satisfied that there is a sufficiently broad sampling to include the major points.  Intent is not irrelevant.  It is used by judges all the time, especially the ones on the Supreme Court.  You should write them and them them they're doing it wrong.

If I can roll back to a previous statement you made, I do agree that there is no provision made in the Constitution for withdrawal.  But that does not mean there is no right to withdraw.  The founders saw the Constitution as a continuation of the works of the previous Conventions, works that included the Declaration of Independence, which itself was a declaration of withdrawing from a government.  The right to withdraw is not Constitutional, it is pre-Constitutional. 

4553
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 10:38:05 AM »
Groups of people do not have motives, individuals do. 

Yes.  And if you want to understand the motives behind those who wrote and approved the Constitution, you should read their own words on it.  The Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers are a great source as are TJ's set of correspondence. 

Here's a quote from George Washington showing the need for a well regulated militia:

Quote from: George Washington
To place any dependance upon Militia, is, assuredly, resting upon a broken staff. Men just dragged from the tender Scenes of domestick life; unaccustomed to the din of Arms; totally unacquainted with every kind of Military skill, which being followed by a want of confidence in themselves, when opposed to Troops regulary train'd, disciplined, and appointed, superior in knowledge, and superior in Arms, makes them timid, and ready to fly from their own shadows.

Essentially he argues that our unorganized militia is insufficient to be effective at all.  I would add to his thoughts that a militia which is not equally equipped would be little more than cannon fodder.  In the General's day, that would have equated to militia showing up to defend their homes with pitchforks against the organized British Army. 

On the topic of tyranny, there are many quotes, here's one from James Madison at the end of Federalist 48

Quote from: James Madison
The conclusion which I am warranted in drawing from these observations is, that a mere demarcation on parchment of the constitutional limits of the several departments, is not a sufficient guard against those encroachments which lead to a tyrannical concentration of all the powers of government in the same hands.

Mr Madison at least recognized and communicated the ability of the government to become tyrannical.  His foresight in this document is frankly amazing.

4554
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 07:51:33 AM »
I care not for the private motives of the Founders.

...

The private motives of the founders is secondary to what they legally established.

Then you should not be injecting them.

What they legally created has to be examined in terms of their personal beliefs

4555
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 07:02:49 AM »
they believed THEIR republic could not be corrupted like the old government was.

I would agree that YOU think the founders believed their government was incorruptible. But even a casual reading of the writings of the founding fathers makes it clear they were very concerned about overbearing governments and about their government becoming overbearing.  They tried to design the government so that it would be difficult to do and to be the least invasive possible. 

But somehow we've let people screw it up and that is why we have arguments today about things like gay marriage, drug use and compulsory denial of religious beliefs.  And guns / self defense

4556
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 06:32:23 AM »
No, it wasn't so people could put down a tyrannical government.

It wasn't only so the people could put down a tyrannical government.  You need to keep in mind the history that these men had been through.  Part of the reason was providing future generations the ability to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another.

4557
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 22, 2016, 06:28:17 AM »
Regulated means well trained, well timed, organized, equipped, etc. like a clock.

So would you say that our unorganized militia is at all well regulated?  They are increasingly restricted in the weapons they can bear.  They have no understanding of a military environment.  There is no organization to their structure and there is no training.

It seems to me that a compromise to gain the freedom to equip better weapons with a requirement to enter into a minimum level of organization and training is a win-win. 

4558
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 21, 2016, 11:06:07 AM »
Why do people misunderstand English so badly that they think the "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" is restricted to only militias?

It's obviously not.  But some of the weapons could be restricted to the realm of a well regulated militia.  There's a pretty good reason we don't let just anyone get a 155mm howitzer or a F-35.

It's a trade off.  Whether you think a well regulated militia just means well armed or if it means that they are armed and disciplined then there is something to gain by formalizing the unorganized militia.  You want the .50 caliber sniper rilfe?  Ok, you can have it, but you'll have it as a formal member of the militia.

BTW, I don't believe the term "well regulated" means "well equipped".  When that was written, States appointed the officers of the militia.  They were not just bands of farmers that showed up with their muskets and  milled around until the shooting started.  Militia were considered an important part of an army and having them organized and able to function with the army was "well regulated".  Well, in order to get to that level, you need them to have comparable weapons and some kind of minimal organization that allows you to integrate the local forces into the larger group.

4559
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 21, 2016, 10:53:57 AM »
That was a decent answer.  But there has been much discussion over that awkward phrase for years.  As is, it could be parsed and interpreted in different ways.

No, there's pretty much just one way to parse it.  The noun of the phrase is "the right (of the people)" and the verb is "shall not be infringed".  Everything else is explanatory. 

Wow, she wins again.  My 6th grade teacher told us that parsing sentences would be critical one day.  We all swore we'd never use it.  Rats, she keeps winning.

4560
Spin Zone / Re: Well Regulated Militia Act of 2016?
« on: June 21, 2016, 07:33:56 AM »
"regulated" doesn't mean what you think it does.

Enlighten us.  What does it mean?

Pages: 1 ... 302 303 [304] 305 306 ... 321